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Satya Pal Kataria
XEN Construction RINGUS

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:52 pm Back to top

Respected Readers
A questions raised by CRS recently that " What is the actual gauge of BG 1676 or 1673 ?"
Can any body give link for paper proof for this topic
            
            
            
- Satya Pal Kataria AEN/Construction/VI/HWH ... 20-04-11

Mahendra Pratap Singh
Dy.CE/C/Reasi/NR

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 11:28 am Back to top

As per para 19 of SOD it is 1673 mm
            
            
            

Shailesh Kumar
SSE.P.Way/Con/KQR, EC.Rly

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 12:50 pm Back to top

Respected sirs, if we, r discussing/talking abot item no19,chapter 1, schedule -1, S.O.D2004 then errata is there(RDSO'S letter no CT/SD/REV/BG/MG DATED-_ .9.2007) which says-"Item no19 of chapter1-GENERAL of SCHEDULE-1 at pg 9 shall b read as under-Gauge on straight and curves-The gauge shall be as follows: (i)Straight including curves of 350m radius or more-> -5mm to +3mm i.e.1671mm to 1679mm(ii)For curves of radius less than 350m upto +10mm i.e1686mm,( downloaded from S.E.Rly website long back)".----------------------------------------------- But querrying from sleeper factories and our maintainace practices 60kg sleepers r now standerdised for 1673mm, same practice adopted for Points & crossing(F/S layouts)-i.e standerdised for 1673mm only- We write gauge NEAT or else i.e -1,+2etc. w.r.to 1673mm only( Question also arises wheather our Guge cum level is standerdised for 1673mm or 1676mm gauge?)However on front/cover pg of S.O.D it is written "INDIAN RAILWAYS SCHEDULE OF DIMENSIONS 1676mm GAUGE( BG).



- ShaileshKumarSSE.P.Way/Con/KQR, EC.Rly ... 21-04-11

R. Thirumalai
ADEN/MPL

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 4:29 pm Back to top

it is 1673 mm, when track is laid on psc sleepers, but standard broad gauge is 1676mm only. Broad gauge is adopted is not only in india, but also in many countries hence revision to be adopted in other countries also?
            
            
            
- R. Thirumalai ADEN/PAK ... 22-04-11

Shailesh Kumar
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:01 pm Back to top

Respected sirs,
In a letter no. CT/PTX/NT/SSD ,Dt 26.9.2005 issued by R.D.S.O regarding( sub:)Laying and maintenance of spring setting device para no 7, it is mentioned "Distance between gauge faces of stock rails at ATS should b 1673 +/_ 2 mm in both types of switches". That means while SSD to b used in Points & crossing we have to see the gauge w. r.t 1673mm,( may b interperated?)
            
            
            
- Shailesh Kumar SSE.P.Way/Con/KQR, EC.Rly ... 22-04-11

V Natarajan
AEN(TP)CCG

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:04 am Back to top

The Indian Broad Gauge is 1676mm. All tolerences in the SOD are prescribed with respect to this gauge of 1676mm which itself is a proof that Broad gauge adopted in India is 1676mm.

1435mm is the standard gauge followed in 60% of the countries and any gauge more than 1435mm is defined as a Broad Gauge. The Broadest gauge in the world is 1676mm and is adopted only by countries like India, Pakistan & Argentina. Some other Broad gauges in the world are 1668mm , 1600mm, 1524mm & 1520mm. Bangladesh follows a gauge of 1675mm. So Broad gauge is not the same all over the world.

Para 9 of SOD gives gauge on straight and curves up to 400 metres radius as up to 3mm tight ie 1673mm does not mean that Gauge is 1673mm. It is the tolerence specified with respect of gauge of 1676mm.

Again in case of SSD mentioned by Shri.Shailesh Kumar, the measurements should be 1671mm to 1675mm and tolerence of +/- 2mm is specified from the mean ie 1673mm.

In design of PRC sleepers, we have designed the gauge for 1673mm ie on the tighter side may be to reduce the play and lateral oscillations and heavier track structure can also take more lateral forces. But that does not make the Broad gauge as 1673mm.

Our gauge is calibrated to 1676mm only as tolerences in our SOD (BG)are with reference to gauge of 1676mm.
            
            
            
- V. Natarajan AEN(TP)CCG ... 23-04-11

Shailesh Kumar
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:37 pm Back to top

Respected Sri Natrajan sir, Respected Author is asking abot any PAPER PROOF of what queried by CRS. So mentioning abot BG( 1676mm to 1670mm-used in India, pakistan,Brazil,Ceylon,Argentina), BG(1600mm to 1524mm-used in Rusia , Finland),Standard gauge(1435mm-used in England, USA,China,Canada,Turkey,Persia),Cape gauge(1067mm-used in Japan,Africa,Australia),Meter gauge(1000mm-used in India,France,Argentina,Switzerland),Narrow gauge(762mm,610mm-used in India & other counteries) is not going to help him in any way SIR. Any order might have been given by competent authority to sleeper factory to make the sleeper regarding 1673mm or 1676mm,that paper proof he requires. If our BG is of 1676mm then why in that particular circular of SSD is taking mean & so?. It may b mentioned w.r.t our BG(1676mm if it is? ) .During CRS inspection AUTHOR might have been asked abot this confusion in straight track, curved track or in Points & crossing where this question regarding gauge tolerance( of course not saftey tolerance) would have occured.There ary many points where IRPWM( with C.S) & SOD (With Erratta & c.s) going in different directions.Sir, i want to mention Para no 19 of SOD,- erratta is there its 350m & so on( of course it is mentioning wrt.1676mm) . I learn a lot from yor previous postings sir, keep on posting, sir. thank u sir!



- ShaileshKumarSSE.P.Way/Con/KQR, EC.Rly ... 23-04-11

Sumit Jain
DGM/P

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 6:09 pm Back to top

I agree with mr.natrajan. Std. gauge is 1676. For straights -5 to +3 is allowed. It means 1671 to 1679. Members may kindly check their own gauge and should be in knowledge of it's standardization. PSC layout has been standardized over 1673. Be it line psc or sej or turnout. So technically you cannot get a 0 gauge even if you are laying point as per rdso drawing if ur gauge is standardized for 1676. Members may also note that due to usage of 1673 over 1676 in psc fan shape layout..all wing rail and check rail clearances and even for SSD have been suitably reduced by exactly 3mm.
            
            
            
- Sumit Jain SR.ADEN BUI, Varanasi Division, NER ... 23-04-11

Shailesh Kumar
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:04 pm Back to top

Respected Sri v. natrajan sir & sri Sumit jain sir, I fully agree with both of yor comments/ guidance, but AUTHOR QUESTION IS REGARDING PAPER PROOF OF 1676mm(that is available in S.O.D, ok fine! ), but we all r saying our usual practice to maintain our BG(psc sleeper) track on 1673mm( Where is PAPER proof of that?) So that author can comply the Query made by CRS! As per my assumption during CRS inspection DISPUTE would have ocurred abot our gauge length Wheather we should mention the gauge w.r.t 1676mm or 1673mm!!!!
            
            
            
- Shailesh Kumar SSE.P.Way/Con/KQR, EC.Rly ... 23-04-11

Narasimha Murty Gannavarapu
EXECUTIVE ENGINEER(CON)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:50 pm Back to top

The excerpts of SOD :
SCHEDULE OF DIMENSIONS-1676mm, GAUGE
SCHEDULE—I
STANDARD
IMENSIONS
1676mm GAUGE (BG)
CHAPTER I—GENERAL
The DIMENSIONS given in this Schedule-I have been classified under two heads namely for ‘Existing
works' and for 'New works'. Existing works means the works which were existing before issue of t his
Schedule of Dimensions (2004) and would help the field engineers to provide the information about previous
dimensions followed at one place.
New works would include altogether new constructions, additions of new lines/structure, gauge
conversion and doubling. However, it is not intended to include the works of alteration such as shif t ing of a
points and crossings, extension of siding, building etc.
The dimensions, except for existing works, are to be observed on all 1676 mm gauge on I ndian Ra ilways unless prior sanction has been obtained from the Railway Board through the Commissioner/Chief Commissioner of Rail Safety to execute the new works which would infringe this Schedule of Dimensions
            
            
            
- Narasimha Murty Gannavarapu EXECUTIVE ENGINEER(CON) ... 23-04-11

Shailesh Kumar
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 12:56 am Back to top

Respected Sri Murthy sir, In yor reply post(excerpts of SOD, BG) last two lines create doubt in my mind( or I may not b following). Wheather for making/starting a new line, we require Prior permission of CRS through R.Bd,for 1673mm.? AS NOW DAYS OUR PSC SLEEPERS ARE MADE/ STANDERDISED FOR 1673mm( of course we r searching the PAPER PROOF of adoption of this gauge for sleeper making?, Everyone is agreed to this IN VERBAL). Is it equivalent/interperated to the INFRINGEMENT to the our adopted BG track ( concluded as 1676mm gauge)? If it is asked by CRS( as mentioned by AUTHOR & that also of the rank of Officer) during his inspection, then it would have been shorted out on trolly itself( SOD is part of the booklist which we carry, as u all know). There might have occured some contradiction, then only AUTHOR is asking abot the PAPER PROOF. During track measurement readings of gauge, there might have different opinions REGARDING w.r.t...1676mm or 1673mm! AS in this topic itself, upto now 2 Learned Engineers/ Officers r with 1673mm.
            
            
            
- Shailesh Kumar SSE.P.Way/Con/KQR, EC.Rly ... 24-04-11

V Natarajan
AEN(TP)CCG

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 7:35 am Back to top

What is the problem if the guage is 1673mm when it will still be within the tolerences laid down in the SOD with respect of gauge of 1676mm.

For paper proof :- For manufacturing of sleepers with gauge of 1673mm, the proof is the drawing approved by RDSO. This might have been done after the approval of the Railway Board perhaps after discussing in one of the TSC items. The proof may be available with RDSO/Railway Board.
            
            
            
- V. Natarajan AEN(TP)CCG ... 24-04-11

Shailesh Kumar
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:21 am Back to top

Respected sirs, Problem is not in maintaining/ constructing a track with any nominal gauge(1676mm or 1673mm).Everywhere we r getting the PAPER PROOF of 1676mm nominal gauge(IRPWM, SOD), but in this Psc. sleeper era, we r maintaining/constructing(Straight, curve,pts & xing, Sej's etc.), the same very own BG Railway w.r.t 1673mm( assuming paper with Rly board) & saying our BG is of 1676mm.[ sir, my friends were asking abot this long back, during one CRS inspection] Peculiar situation, at least when taking gauge readings during inspection & mentioning -2, +1, +2.... Prompt question asked w.r.t......, if our answer would b. w.r.t. 1673mm, then they ask ANY PAPER PROOF!!!!!!!!!..... This is lying with Railway board does not help us!
            
            
            
- Shailesh Kumar SSE.P.Way/Con/KQR, EC.Rly ... 24-04-11

V Natarajan
AEN(TP)CCG

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:05 am Back to top

This is our mind set. I can give an example. In game of cricket where should a batsmen stand? Some take off stump guard and some take middle or leg stump guard. Why is it so ?. The batsman may take any guard, but should know where his stumps are.

Same manner we know what is the range of the guage in which the track should be maintained and we design our sleepers for a guage within the range which is convinent/more advantageous.

Yes. If you want to change the standards from 1676mm to 1673mm, it can be done, but will call for changes at many places including various formulas for speed, superelevation etc.. besides tolerences in SOD. This is unnecessary now.

It is not possible that we are manufacturing sleepers for 1673mm against 1676mm specified in SOD and we do not have the basis in the Indian Railways. The division or even the zonal railways are simply not concerned about this as the sleepers are manufactured as per the design & drawings of the RDSO and we may not have the papers for the basis of design of 1673mm. But somebody can be deputed to RDSO for the same especially when some body at the level of CRS wants it. If you want it you have to take the efforts.

The track guages are indeed calibrated as per the gauge of 1676mm- the standards given in SOD
            
            
            
- V. Natarajan AEN(TP)CCG ... 24-04-11

Shailesh Kumar
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:51 pm Back to top

Yes sir, One of my Sr. D. E. N used to tell us" If yor superior asked u to do something,"U Don't ask why; don't reply; otherwise go, & die! This is the thing where we r getting the habit of YES SIR culture,& Boss is always write culture! Respected Sir, I'm asking abot the website/link or any other paper proof( that may b readly available to so many learned Engineers including u) nothing like irritating u, if it had, I FEEL SORRY FOR THAT, SIR. Don't u think this change is reqired to b Incorporated., if we r Maintaining/ constructing the total track structure( in Psc sleeper) on the basis of 1673mm.,so that such type of peculiar situation doesn't occur to WE POOR PWI! During CRS inspections, What we POOR PWI'S CAN UTTER in front of CRS( that too without paper proof) everbody knows! Thanking u for Positive comments/ advices sir,keep on advicing us sir!
            
            
            
- Shailesh Kumar SSE.P.Way/Con/KQR, EC.Rly ... 24-04-11
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